Norbert Walter-Borjans on Kevin Kühnert: “a man of balance”

At party meetings, Kevin Kühnert is often the one “who shows solutions between different positions and fits into the whole”. In addition to Kühnert, the designated new SPD party leader Lars Klingbeil also stands for the “new culture” among the Social Democrats. “He will make the party’s positions clear without playing opposition to the Chancellery,” said Walter-Borjans.

Read the entire interview here:

Mr. Walter-Borjans, you will end your career on Saturday. Are you sad already?

I feel very tidy inside. The election of a Social Democrat as Federal Chancellor and the start of a federal government that promises a new beginning are a good end for me. At the age of 69 you should also take care of the often neglected compensation. Jogging, for example. This was clearly neglected not only during the coalition negotiations.

But doesn’t the party profile have to be sharpened right now if the SPD appoints the chancellor? Why don’t you continue there?

The SPD must not become the mere speaker of a coalition government in the future either, but must remain a driving force – just like the Greens and FDP will be. But now, too, is the right time to place my task in the hands of a younger man. We cultivate continuity and change in terms of business and personnel.

Saskia Esken and you are still not accepted as chairperson in parts of the SPD. How much does that annoy you?

When we won the membership vote, some in political Berlin undoubtedly felt that we were troublemakers. Saskia Esken and I wanted to change something and build bridges at the same time. Over time, this met with more and more positive feedback. Today I have absolutely nothing to complain about. It is absolutely normal that there are always people in an opinionated party who do not support you. But that is no comparison to the CDU and how it deals with its chairman.

The SPD is closed like seldom before. Even when the party was at 15 percent at the end of July, there was calm. How did you do that?

Perhaps that was the most important contribution to ensuring this solidarity, especially during the long dry spell. I have deliberately not started to claim any further offices. That makes you independent. At the same time, others do not sense competition in every proposal. In the past, factual differences of opinion in the SPD repeatedly escalated into personal conflicts for this reason. We turned that off. We have learned to conduct factual controversies the way it should be: confidential and collegial. If one or the other leaves, we speak openly and try to find a balance. The culture of togetherness in the party leadership and with the party structures has changed. We have to preserve that.

Will this also succeed the designated SPD party leader Lars Klingbeil?

Lars Klingbeil also stands for this new culture in the SPD. And he has an excellent network in the party. He will make the party’s positions clear without playing opposition to the Chancellery.

Does that also apply to the designated SPD General Secretary Kevin Kühnert? In the past he would have loved to break up the grand coalition …

Kevin Kühnert has often been shown very clichéd in public. I have a very different picture of him. He has already taken on a creative and at the same time balancing role as Juso federal chairman and even more so as deputy chairman of the SPD. In party meetings, Kevin Kühnert is often the one who shows solutions between different positions and fits into the whole. I am delighted that he allegedly coached us so intensively during the fight for party leadership …

… well, the scene in the corresponding Kevin Kühnert documentary is very impressive …
… of course Saskia Esken and I sat down with Kevin Kühnert and thought about how we could formulate things in a nutshell. At that time we only had a few minutes for our performance. That would not have been possible without strict dramaturgy. We had a great team for that – with Kevin and others. But I’ve already brought my compass with me. Kevin knew that too (laughs).

In the struggle for party leadership, you portrayed Olaf Scholz as a compromise on two legs. Why should Scholz of all people be the Chancellor for a departure?

Party and government leaders have very different expectations. One is the head of a coalition and has to look for compromises that do not dilute, but help us move forward. The other has to sharpen the profile of one part of the coalition. The compromise must not be the starting point. That was often the case up until two years ago, which is one of the reasons why some of the SPD members were alienating the establishment at the time. For me there was never any doubt that Olaf Scholz has a clear social democratic fabric. Social democratic political practice such as affordable housing, fair wages and stable pensions has always been his passion. He can bring opposing positions together and negotiates on an equal footing with his counterpart without giving up his principles. All of this makes him a good chancellor – especially at this time.

When it comes to your passion, tax policy, nothing goes under the traffic lights.

The concessions we had to make here hurt me in particular, no question about it. But we were able to achieve more than with the brakes of the CDU and CSU. The SPD, the Greens and the FDP are united by the attitude of wanting to invest massively. The expansion of alternative energies, digitization, the turnaround in traffic, all of this has to be paid for. I predict to you: These projects will not fail because of the lack of money.

And does the finance minister see it that way too?

Naturally. We are breaking new ground in budget policy in the coalition agreement. We are building up a climate reserve, strengthening public companies such as KfW and will use the debt brake as it is intended – as a framework for solid state finances, without letting it become a brake on investment and the future. Believe me: If the traffic light is missing money halfway, the FDP will not demand that important investments be foregone. Social cuts as counter-financing would not work with the SPD.

So will Lindner be a good finance minister?

I believe that Christian Lindner is well aware of the traffic light motto “dare to progress” and the practical constraints of the office. He is an avowed part of a coalition that wants to move into the future.

Has the fiscal paradigm shift towards higher and debt-financed investments, which you have been pushing for years, now also reached politics, if the FDP should support the new course?
When investing in the future, it is perfectly legitimate that the future generation, who will benefit from it, should also contribute a bit to the burden. Here I find the basic understanding of the liberals much more progressive than the conservatives. Many corporate finance directors can neither understand why the state is no longer spending more money on fundamentally important investments, nor why this fails because of the rigidity of a self-chosen debt rule. They say: If we had drawn up such rules that deprive us of the business fundamentals of tomorrow, we would have been rid of our job for a long time.

One major reform that Lindner will have to take care of will be the reform of the EU debt rules. Should Lindner loosen it?

The debt ceiling of 60 percent has been overtaken a bit by reality in times of crisis. The states are now well above the border, everyone has to take note of that. At the same time, I understand critics who warn against simply softening the debt limit per se. Without jointly funded budget preparation and control agreements, EU funding will remain piecemeal. We need rules in order to create a long-term balance in Europe based on the model of the German state financial equalization. Anything else would not advance European integration.

Another topic: Last week there was a torch lift in front of the house of the Saxon Minister of Health. Has the brutality increased in society?

Definitely yes, and I am very concerned about it. A torchlight procession is the fascist method. It’s about intimidation while accepting real threats. We must not allow extremists to mock the state with impunity. A half-hearted approach would be devastating as a signal.

What exactly should happen?

These alleged demonstrators must feel the harshness of the rule of law. In the past, agitation stayed at the regulars’ table, today it is spread via social networks. Just as there are traffic rules, we need rules for social networks. And basically I would like to see a different way of dealing with each other, even if they differ. As NRW finance minister, I wrestled hard with the Swiss ambassador in the discussion about the Swiss tax treaty. But this led to a personal friendship that continues to this day.

You prevented the tax treaty in 2011 because, in your opinion, it was too lenient with tax evaders. What do you prefer to be remembered as? As a “tax Robin Hood” or as a chancellor-maker?

As chancellor-making tax Robin Hood (laughs). Seriously: I am delighted with the encouragement that, as a kind of unifying element, I have not only received since I announced my departure. Tax and distribution issues are my passion. I will continue to deal with it and contribute where desired. But certainly not in a way that puzzles my successors on talk shows.

Mr. Walter-Borjans, thank you very much for the interview.

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