“A moral epidemic has broken out in Moscow”

Mr. Sorokin, in one of your works you turned Russian uranium into sugar in nuclear missiles, thereby pointing out the miserable state of the army, which is now so surprising to all Western military experts. How did you know, do you have visionary abilities?
Writers have an inner antenna. You can capture something with it, even if not consciously. I don’t see a future, but I feel something. And sometimes that’s how it happens.

As in your last book “Red Pyramid”, a state structure with omnipotence for Putin?
The construction of our state is a deep dark pyramid. And this pyramid was built by Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century, and it hasn’t changed much since then. Since then, Russia has lived like a medieval construct with a human being at the top. And below, these are not citizens, but subordinates …

… as Heinrich Mann describes the Germans in “Der Untertan”?
Exactly. But there is also a moral brutality. Putin is doing the same in Ukraine as Ivan the Terrible did against Novgorod in 1570. At that time, the western Russian city, at that time a modern, Europe-oriented Hanseatic republic, was conquered in a punitive mission, the 2000 richest and most famous families were destroyed and the city was plundered. After that, Novgorod never got back on its feet. When they left the city and subjugated, the surrounding villages were also burned down and the cattle killed. That’s the tactics of occupiers, and that’s the paradigm: those in power in this vast country can only rule as occupiers. Brutal, unpredictable and merciless – against their own population.

In the West it is often said that it is Putin’s war. Isn’t it also the war of the Russians?
Russian Patriarch Kirill recently said that Russia has never waged campaigns of conquest. This is nonsense. Ever since the days of Ivan the Terrible, Russia has repeatedly waged wars of conquest. Therefore, this war can be called both Putin’s war and Russia’s war. Let’s remember the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan or Stalin’s attempt to conquer Finland. But the Ukrainians will win this Russian Putin war, just like the Finns did in the past.

How do you explain that a majority of Russians are in favor of this war?
In times of war, opinion polls can be forgotten. One in 50 might honestly answer the question, “Are you for or against Putin?” It is also becoming clearer with each passing day that this is a very unsuccessful war. Every day the number of those opposed to this war increases.

Nevertheless, when Ukrainians call their Russian relatives, they are often not believed. So where does this Russian belief that Putin is on the right track come from?
For 20 years, this conditioning has been broadcast on television. And in the provinces there are hardly any people who don’t look into this box. Something sticks. In addition, 70 years of the Soviet Union unfortunately also means decades of intellectual and human degradation, as sociologists have proven. Stalin destroyed thinking people. Later they were sent to camps. In the 1990s, the wild west capitalism that took hold in Russia destroyed the poorly paid intelligentsia. Putin was then lucky that the oil price rose and the state had money and could start the propaganda machine television. It has mentally irradiated many people.

Or are many Russians simply imperialistic and, like Putin, see the collapse of the Soviet Union as the “greatest tragedy of the 20th century”?
For me, the collapse of the monster was just great luck. But the people want this drug, they want to feel like a great power. That’s why nuclear weapons are so important. But I assume that these nuclear weapons are in as bad a state as the rest of the army.

Where does this great power bliss come from?
In Russia, the Soviet past was never dealt with like National Socialism was in Germany. We’ve never really buried our past. Losers, like the Germans, have it easier than winners. After all, the USSR did not suffer defeat. But Russia is about to do just that. Putin is a gambler who bets everything on black at roulette. He needs the win at all costs now. He believes that he is not fighting against Ukraine, but against Western civilization. He absorbed that hatred at the KGB. But he will lose this war.

If you see the hints in your books, then many things lead in this direction. Was this a linear process, or was there some point where Putin completely changed?
Chancellor Angela Merkel had already noticed some time ago that Putin lives in a different world. What led to this was the absolute power and the fact that he is not a particularly intelligent person and comes from a very simple family. The Russian Orthodox banker Pugachev was very close to Putin before he fled Russia to the west. He was recently asked whether Putin was a believer, since he crossed himself so often. Pugachev replied: No, Putin only believes in the sanctity of his own power. He believes in his supposed mission.

What does that mean for war?
He will put more and more wood on the fire, mobilize more and more soldiers and military technology. But he cannot win against the good Ukrainian army and the West. Putin is banking on an alleged denazification of Ukraine, which means the destruction of the independent Ukrainian national character. He wants to destroy Ukraine like Ivan the Terrible Novgorod and turn the country into a Russian province.

But Putin claims that Russia and Ukraine are one people.
That’s not true at all. Ukrainians, especially those in the west of the country, are real Europeans, individualists. They don’t have that Russian collectivism about them. That’s why their army is different from the Russian one. Russia’s army lives in the tradition of the Soviets and the Tsars, where you can never contradict the leadership. You have to follow orders like a slave. In the Soviet Army, soldiers were constantly humiliated. The Ukrainian troops shook it off. Russia and Ukraine have different civilizations and different futures. Putin wants to go back to the past. But Ukraine, which also speaks Russian, doesn’t want to go back in time. That was the biggest shock for Putin.

You can see an unbelievable amount of violence in your works, but also in the destruction in the Kiev suburb of Bucha. Where does this incredible violence come from in Russia?
In my childhood everything was saturated with violence, in the family, on the street, in kindergarten, at school. Violence, humiliation and the fear of it – the whole system of the Soviet Union was built on this. And that even in the 60s and 70s, when I grew up and which were the best years of the Soviet Union. A lot of things were great on the outside, but the fear was completely in the people. Everyone had a dark spot. My father, for example, grew up in the German-occupied area near Kaluga. He became a very good scientist in the field of metallurgy, but he was never accepted into the Communist Party and was never allowed to travel abroad because he grew up in an occupied territory. Fear was everywhere. Putin cleverly exploits this.

How do you see Germany’s attitude in this war?
If Germany does not do significantly more for Ukraine, the Germans will have to justify themselves to others for a very long time. That will not be easy. Distrust of Germany after 16 years of Merkel building bridges to Putin and to this day not apologizing for her attitude towards Russia has grown.

Despite all your skepticism, Russia has always been a great cultural nation. What does this war mean for culture?
Now may not be the time to talk about culture while there is war. But whatever the outcome of the war, it has already done a great deal of damage to Russian culture.

Which?
The war – the Russians caused it. The abominations of Bucha – those were the Russians. Why should I still read your literature? It’s like in the Second World War, when many people asked: why should I still read Goethe?

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Do you see the danger that Chekhov’s “Cherry Orchard” or Tchaikovsky’s “Nutcracker” will no longer appear on western stages?
The war will end this year, and then we will see how the world still treats Russian culture. The classics should survive. Hitler loved Wagner, but Wagner remained Wagner. Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky are also not likely to disappear anywhere, but what will happen to contemporary art is anyone’s guess.

Are your books still sold in Russia?
So far yes. But a Duma deputy has already demanded that the books of “traitors” be banned. If things go on like this for months, the war and the propaganda, there will probably be bans.

Will the days of samizdat return, of underground publishing houses like in Soviet times?
Why not? That’s how I started out as a writer. In any case, it is clear that the censorship is getting stricter. Because things aren’t going as well on the battlefield, they will fight with the “fifth column,” the critics at home who are said to be undermining morale.

Are you currently still writing?
no Nothing is going right at the moment. I’m just soaking up information. But I’ve taken breaks before. A writer must also be able to remain silent. You can’t write every day, you have to draw strength from time to time.

Or are you speechless in the face of horror?
Yes, a moral muteness. I can’t write right now.

Do you feel at home in the Berlin district of Charlottenburg, so loved by Russians, or do you want to go back to Russia?
My wife and I left the country two days before the war began. And we hope to return one day. But right now I have the feeling that a mental epidemic has broken out in Moscow. Normal people became zombies. I hope that the Russian people will recover.

Mr. Sorokin, thank you very much for the interview.

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